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Post by dbp1990 on Jan 7, 2007 16:54:58 GMT -5
The problem with MTSC is that is has to much UN - USED space, from this view you can see a large area on the roof of the North End Zone that is shielded by that Mesh Wall.
The only things in that area is air conditioner units, which can be easily relocated elsewhere if need be, I'm sure this rooftop area is structurally sound and could support additional loads if it was incorporated into the interior of the building.
I don't know the exact measurements of this area, but it looks to be a sizable space, I'm going to guess in the neighborhood of 10 - 15,000 square feet, I know it doesn't look like much from this angle, but take a look at an aerial photo, there's lots of room there.
Google "MTS Centre + Aerial" in Images...................
This area existes behind the wall of the last row of the upper bowl in the North East, North and NorthWest End, it could serve as additional Concourse Space for those area.
If nothing else this extra concourse would take pressure of the already tight concourse for the upper bowl, other ideas for this area, additional seating, Standing Room, Washrooms, Concessions and maybe just more Suites.
If you also notice, on the West Side of the Building, there has been another addition, built up from the pre existing over hang that is the concourse for the Suites below, there is an addition to the building exterior that also creates additional concourse space.
It again gives the builders the option to knock the walls out between the columns behind the last row of the upper bowl and again, create addtional rows of seating, suites or just standing room, again, if nothing else, more walk space, creating less congestion.
Now that you have some sort of visual, what images do you now see as potential solutions?
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Post by wagner3 on Jan 7, 2007 17:23:25 GMT -5
knock out all the walls above/behind the last row of seats -- around the entire building -- but leave the support beams in place which hold up the roof!...place some columns -- or better yet, two columns built in the form of spiral stairways if necessary -- in the middle of the east and west side of the building running up from the sidewalk and ending flush with the last row of seats...build a platform and shallow row of 'suites' along the west and east side enough at least for one row of normal seats and one row of barstools/bar counter behind the normal row of seats...do this around the entire building...the north and south end zone already have support for this...the north endzone roof can be made into a restraunt/bar washroom area behind the said row of seats/bar stools (do the same with the south side as space permits at least by including some washrooms and a concession stand or two)...this will take some pressure off the upper bowl concourse area due to more people in the building...you now have an arena which is likely over 16,000 without removing the roof...fire code issues are dealt with by making some of the new support colunms on the east and west sides into fire exits...access to these new 'suites' is via the upper bowl concourse through the normal staircases...these are not luxury suites at all...more like a standing room sections or party zones...easy, isn't in??
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jets07
Veteran Member
Posts: 144
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Post by jets07 on Jan 7, 2007 17:54:33 GMT -5
The addition of Sky suites would also raise the total. In GM Place, they also have a few rows of seats below the sky suites. Typically, they're placed above the upper decks such as the media booths which currently exist. This could be accomplished in the existing building.
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Post by Darren Ford on Jan 7, 2007 19:28:57 GMT -5
This is what I meant by the ability to add "one row...maybe two".
As in one row of seating around the upper bowl and standing room behind that. Adequate suites could not be added with this method as there is not enough space or ability to service them or properly. However giant standing room suites of sorts could be facilitated. A poor man's suite if you will. Party zones for groups to buy on a per game basis. Say eight per side equalling 16 x 16 people. Then the end zones would be regular standing room zones with extra space and concessions to relieve the current concourse below.
Just speculation. I do know that 12 sky suites can be added below the press box and a row can be squished in. That is for sure.
The rest is speculation. Whether MTSC can handle a plan like this engineering-wise is debatable and unknown. It could work in theory.
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Post by wagner3 on Jan 7, 2007 21:20:44 GMT -5
the limitations of where the MTSC was built, including the narrow width and concourse capacity, means it harder to work with than most arenas...however, to say that NO CAPACITY can be add is ridiculous -- MTSC would be the first arena ever built that is incapable of renovation or retrofitting...the most cost effective way to add 1000 capacity (without removing the roof or burying streets) is along the lines indicated in this thread...
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Post by Darren Ford on Jan 8, 2007 1:15:56 GMT -5
Oops forgot...I meant one side and two ends....not both sides.
Nothing can be done along the Donald (east) side. Only Hargrave sides and endzones. I have drafts of renos I did up a long time ago. It wasn't that they were far fetched, but rather unnecessary. I have all of the sketches done.
Fact is, they are unlikely to spend the kind of bucks and pour cement and plumb, run electricity etc etc etc for an entire forth semi-concourse to faciliate one more row of people and some standing room. Only if they think they need more space for people would they even consider such a plan.
My drawings are similar to the one's seen in this thread just in more detail and with thought put into where things would actually have to go (stairs, washrooms etc). It also depicts conceptions of the rink from inside using existing photos of inside the bowl and aerial views from above and at an angle. This was when I apparently had too much time on my hands.
Anyways, no point to them I figured. It would be like retro-fitting Winnipeg Arena. Just too much cramming.
Just add 12 suites and one row and then sell out what we've got, night after night.
That's roughly 15, 550. Truly a modern Winnipeg Arena.
DF
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Post by JETStender on Jan 9, 2007 2:07:27 GMT -5
Again, good idea on paper, the Problem is the model you used from the mtsc site is not to scale. By that I mean if you've been in the upper deck you would know that the concourse level is the same as row 1. It's actually under the seating. There is not the room there appears to be. This is why there can be no more rows added at the top without MAJOR Reno's. (See Photos) ![]() members.shaw.ca/jetstender/upper east1.jpg[/img]  Also Code requires that there be X amount of Concourse space per seat. I'm willing to guess that the MTSC is already at minimum due to the fact that Upper bowl people cannot even see the lower bowl Concourse. As for the North end you will notice where the main pillars are. They are directly under the last row in the upper bowl. Just past the beams is a little Concourse area that I highlighted in Photo. Below that is the Stairway from street level to the upper level. The rest is just the glass and brick facade. There is no more significant structural support following those beams. Which is the area those AC units are.  |
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Post by Darren Ford on Jan 9, 2007 2:38:29 GMT -5
Good work JetsTender, but the weak areas you mention could conceivably be retro-fitted. I use that term loosely. I have done my homework and you have done yours. The bottom line is that a few select things could be done to MTSC in theory. But it would just make another 1979 retro-fit Winnipeg Arena-sytle change. A.K.A. Brutal!
Luckily....
BT is also correct. The building, and more importantly the market it resides in, is just fine.
Once again....it could have been better, it could have been worse...as in not existed at all. That's where we live. Face it. We're Peggers and we settle.
But we can still settle for no less than the highest caliber hockey in the market it belongs in. Hockey is No. 1 in our country by a long shot. It is No. 11 in the country that holds 24 of 30 teams in the NHL.
one big gigantic.....
HUH?
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Post by JETStender on Jan 9, 2007 6:19:11 GMT -5
you are right. there's nothing wrong...why can't we discuss issues related to the arena, the return of the jets, etc.? i guess according to BT we should just read the FAQ and that'll be the final word, final opinion on all matters...might as well close down the discussion board all together... by "probably one row in the upper bowl above the suites" what exactly do you mean jetstender?? Where the daktronics ring of whattever they call it is. I believe they could add a row there then just move the ring in front of it. |
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Post by wagner3 on Jan 9, 2007 17:20:18 GMT -5
it certainly looks like there is SPACE for another row at the front, but how would the row be supported??
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Post by JETStender on Jan 9, 2007 23:48:47 GMT -5
it certainly looks like there is SPACE for another row at the front, but how would the row be supported?? I'm no engineer but I'm sure it could be tied in to the existing concrete some how. |
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Post by JETStender on Jan 10, 2007 2:23:47 GMT -5
I'm no engineer but I'm sure it could be tied in to the existing concrete some how. Jetstender, I have looked at your counter point on my thoughts, although I don't have the hours tonight to go into more detailed drawing to ensure you see what I'm visualizing, I want to make sure we are talking about the same things............. In your picture of the COLUMNS where is says "AREA?  ", that spot outside in the grand entrance is not it, essentailly the new area would be created on the roof and then enclosing that area, to ensure some sort of structural integrity for new loads, I'm sure new beams and girders might have to be run either below the roof or on top off it, then a new concrete floor poured over, Yes thats the area in Question. There is no major concrete support beams in that area. They stop at the last row of the upper bowl as you can see in this photo. Only steel beams.  As for your comment about the drawing not being to scale, Agreed, I was just for illistration purposes, I realize things may not be as open looking in the final product, but those Cloumns extend up to the last row of the upper deck, those coulmns could be further extended to the roof and then bridged to the new front FASCADE creating a NEW Smaller Interior lobby above the Grand Entrance we currently have, Those Columns do extend to the roof. They are what supports the roof. I have ran arrows for you to see the columns better.   I realize this would take some engineering, but the front fascade is made out of steel not paper mashea, here the best open photo I could find that had things stripped down ro where you could see things. *NOTE* the view is from the South End, I couldn't find a NORTH End Shot, but the Concept is the same from the South as it is the NORTH! You have to remember the main pillar is only about 12' from the bottom of the last row in the upper bowl to where the roof sits. |
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Post by JETStender on Jan 10, 2007 2:25:52 GMT -5
Another shot showing the UNDER FRAMEWORK, looks to be fairly well constructed, with ample steel already in place to build off, add too or reinforce if necessary................. Those are not meant to support the weight you require. Be sides you would have to raise the roof for an unobstructed view. |
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Post by JETStender on Jan 10, 2007 2:34:17 GMT -5
Where you have new level is the base of the existing roof. Do you know what I mean?  |
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Post by JETStender on Jan 10, 2007 2:40:31 GMT -5
here's a picture of the north end roof showing the large amount of unused space...i can see this made into a concession/washroom/bar area... scroll to fifth image down on the left side www.advance-pro.com/completeproj/mts_g.htmThis is the perfect pic to use here you go DBP work your magic.  |
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Post by wagner3 on Jan 10, 2007 2:54:16 GMT -5
btw, the roof is perfectly 'flush' with the area above the last row of seats...the area with the concrete reinforced beams is where you'd place the shallow mini suites
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
e
a
m--s s s s s s s s s--m
-------x x x x x x--------
s = normal seat
x = bar stool or standing room
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Post by wagner3 on Jan 10, 2007 3:03:08 GMT -5
take a look at this picture of GM Place...they use some of those areas for boxes and it looks great, normal...the boxes near the roof are another story... click on the first image to the right to inlarge en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Place |
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Post by JETStender on Jan 10, 2007 3:50:59 GMT -5
Looks eerily similar, on a larger scale of course. I like the idea of Boxes there or even a ring up top like GM place. Although their roof is a bit different (more height to it).  |
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Post by JETStender on Jan 10, 2007 9:27:11 GMT -5
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Post by JETStender on Jan 10, 2007 10:02:37 GMT -5
Just to add its only one suite in that Photo you found Wagner, just that wide. There is anoter on the oposite end. www.canucks.com/images/hosip/infopackage06.pdfI still like those sky suites. I'm wondering if the view would be similar in the 12 boxes they are speaking of in the MTSC. Compare 400 Level boxes  500 Level boxes  Much better view. |
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", that spot outside in the grand entrance is not it, essentailly the new area would be created on the roof and then enclosing that area, to ensure some sort of structural integrity for new loads, I'm sure new beams and girders might have to be run either below the roof or on top off it, then a new concrete floor poured over, 
