MTSC - A Solution for Capacity - The Visual

[Ric O.]

blackthorne said:

So, if we can demonstrate that say 1,000 or so quality seats can be relatively easily added to meet future demand,

3 years of "MTS Centre expansion" threads and the best (and only feasible it would seem) idea is from Darren: 12 more suites and 1 extra row in the upper deck to add possibly 500 seats.

Man, we really need a new arena in Winnipeg...

Ever consider that Chipman wanted it 15,000 seats so ppl wouldn't get excited about the NHL's possible return? So he wouldn't be hounded about it?

Just imagine the kind of harrassment he'd be subjected to (much to my delight though) if the MTS Centre seated 18,000 for NHL hockey in its original form...

I guess if you're going to talk about feasibility and 18000 seats...well let's say 17,000...

Cost of Pens: US$175M (C$201M)
Cost of Panthers: say US$90M (C$103M)
Forget the Pens, buy the Cats...Purchase Savings = C$98M

Estimated cost of ripping the roof off of MTSC to PROPERLY accomdate expansion of the upper bowl, say 2000 seats and a few more suites (some cantilevering on Hargrave and Donald sides is likely necessary), approximately C$40M (basically adding 1/3 to the original cost of building MTSC. Seems like a reasonable number, give or take $10M).

So for $143M you have a 17000 seat arena and a hockey team. Still seems feasible to me.

Ok, it's crazy,
- and I know Panthers are not for sale (they are just an example of a team that could conceivably be available in foreseeable future),

- and I know people say that the city would never allow the MTSC to go outside of its present footprint (I would never say never to such a thing since it's not impossible and I don't believe it's unfeasible from an engineering point of view),

- and I'm sure some smart businessman will put NHL hockey in MTSC just the way it is.

This is all just for fun in the absence of something more concrete to talk about, no pun intended.

[JETStender]

dbp1990 said:

Does anyone know if the plans for MTS CENTRE are available to Joe Public through the Freedom of Information Act, I know the original plans are with the city, but can anyone go and request a copy of the exact SCALE PLANS?

*Note* I'm still working on the Skeleton Picture that Jetstender and Wagner3 found for me to augment..................

The blue prints would fall under copyrighted material by Sink Combs Dethlefs, therefor I believe they would not be. Just look how hard it was to get the term sheet out of them.

[WpgJets2008]

Good Thread Folks!

The pictures and explanations were first class!

There is an easier way:

There are 20 seats across each third level section on average.

So adding another row, completely around this level, would increase capacity by 600 (20 seats/section x 30 sections in 3rd level).

Above and beyond that, there is additional space behind the sections on the corners where an extra row could be added. This will further boost capacity by 240 (4 corners x 3 sections x 20 seats/section).

So the new capacity would be 15,843 (15,003 + 840) with fairly quick changes (in time for whatever next NHL season given NHL BOG relocation approval). All with completely unobstructed views.

Although I don't have the exact placement this attendance would be in the 30 team circuit, this as Mr. Darren Ford has pointed out is a very respectable average team attendance. But it is very interesting to note the differences between the actual (actual number of people in the building) versus announced (tickets bought not necessarily attended plus freebie tickets donated / issued) game attenadance. (I don't have the time to do this analysis, but it might be good for the campaign to know these numbers inside and out.)

All of what I have mentioned can be done without changing any of the superstructure, mostly through fairly superficial changes.

With respect to the other posts, those other additions are possible (anything is) but they are sure to require extra time and extra cash.

Also, any additions to the MTSC will bring all the "it's too small" naysayers back again right at the time the new Jets would be "landing" back where they belong. So it may "pay" in the long run to just let sleeping dogs lie. To keep the "euphoria" as high and long lasting as possible when they do return.

Keep up the good work!
CCM

[wagner3]

here's an excellent picture of the side of the arena, where shallow, non-luxury type suites could be added if a platform/floor space could be added...the area we are talking about is between the cement reinforced vertical beams holding up the roof (if that isn't obvious)...

[JETStender]

I dont know where you figure you can get 3 rows in the corners, let alone 1 around the whole upper bowl, without "changing any of the superstructure".

Like I said in an earlier post, 1 row at the bottom of the upper bowl maybe. Anything above the last row on the upper bowl is the exterior wall. If there were mods done there, it would be best served by suites, rather than normal seats to maximise revenue per sq.ft., which BTW, i'm pretty sure we'd be #1 in the NHL already.

[WpgJets2008]

Just to be clear, what I was saying is that 1 row could be added around the top of the upper bowl and a 2nd row could be added to the 3 sections in each corner of the upper bowl without changing the buiding's support system.

By the way, it isn't easily done to support an extra "first" row on the upper bowl because you are already in a cantilever function. eg. hanging off. This would require alot of reengineering and steel reinforcement to make it happen.

These same inputs aren't required at the top of the existing upper bowl as explanied above.

Having said that, you are correct that another ring of luxury boxes around the top of the upper bowl would be an awesome addition for revenue generation. The cost/benefit of a second ring luxury box suites would be questionable not because they wouldn't add enough revenue but the cost to support the backside of those boxes would be hanging off the building's external edges. Unless those boxes were fairly/extremely shallow.

Hope this clears any confusion on my previous post.

And again I would only make any of these changes if the NHL BOG made them a condition of relocation. Which I would highly doubt.
CCM

[leer2006]

I'de say you hit the nail on the head there!
Probably planned like that from the get go because while extra seats would be great.
The suites are where the money is.

[wagner3]

^ can you elaborate on your comment above on how the expansion could be done...great pics by the way...

McFadyen was interviewed on FAN590 several weeks ago at the time of the election (see link here somewhere) and the host McCowan mentioned that he had previously interviewed Chipman and that Chipman claimed expansion was possible (I never heard that interview and never saw it mentioned here)...anyway McFadyen responded that yes there were "spaces" in the MTS Centre where it could be expanded and that it was built in such a way that it was possible to expand the capacity...

[JETStender]

The only plans of expansion, of the MTSC, that have been approved in the design of the existing structure, is 12 Suites that would basically be hung under the existing press box.



However that does not mean that it is the only thing that can be done. ANYTHING is possible. It would just be the lowest cost.

As for the upper bowl expansion, whether it be suites or whatever, they SHOULD have just did it in the FIRST place. There WERE plans for it.

[jhendrix70]

jetstender said:

killerharmon3 said:

I thought the expansion would take place across from the press box?

Not from what I hear.

From what I'm assuming, there would not be "Suites" under the press box’s however, there would be an expansion under the current press boxes ( see GM Place Pics ) for an official "Broadcasters Booth" like in ever other major rink.
If there IS going to be expansion, it will only take place in the upper level of the rink. Look at the pictures I posted,

** Very Simple Way To "Raise The Roof **

Looking at the ends of these steel Girders, in order to lift would be extremely easy. First, sections can be broken up and lifted at different times. Duct work, electrical, and roof pieces would have to be taken apart first however. ( not a problem ) Second, you would need a few cranes to support the top and sides of each roof section while one Crane on either side of each support would insert a steel rod into those "jacking supports" facing outwards. These would have to have been special ordered because I rarely see those types of beams on any structure. ( Arena's that can expand is one Example ) There would have to be additional support in place for a GM Place "Skybox" however, nothing that would be too difficult or expensive. Being that you would need cranes on the rink ( ice ) floor would mean having to re-do the Ice surface afterwards. Depending on where they decide to put extra suites, Extra support columns may not necessarily have to disrupt Donald St. This is a good thing. Other than that, Working with the guys in the industry, seeing buildings go up, I can tell you that the MTS Centre was made to expand. And at a cost that should be more than reasonable.

[jhendrix70]

dbp1990 said:

I'm not quite sure how that attachment is suppoed to work.

If I hear you right then they can systemmaticlly from North to South or South to North systematically disassemble sections of the the skin on the the roof, beams, joists and then insert larger taller pieces to give it addtional height...............

That attachment ( horrible diagram but...) is what would go into the end of a crane. Two Steel brackets ( with teeth to hold in place ) would be inserted into the two holes on each Girder end, and lifted. While it's being lifted, more steel support beams are installed underneath. What I was getting at is that, those beams are NOT the common on large industrial/commercial buildings. These beams would have been ordered like that for the MTS Centre and indicate that expansion WAS in fact on the minds of the people ordering the steel. There is actually a "Simplot" facility in Portage that utilized the same type of beam. This was due to the fact they may/or may not have to lift the roof in order to expand the facility in the future.
Mind you, those beams were about 1/4 the size of the MTS Centre ones but, the concept is exactly the same!
I'm 100% positive the MTS Centre was made viable for any future expansion needs.

[JETStender]

jhendrix70 said:

From what I'm assuming, there would not be "Suites" under the press box’s however, there would be an expansion under the current press boxes ( see GM Place Pics ) for an official "Broadcasters Booth" like in ever other major rink.
If there IS going to be expansion, it will only take place in the upper level of the rink. Look at the pictures I posted,

** Very Simple Way To "Raise The Roof **

Looking at the ends of these steel Girders, in order to lift would be extremely easy. First, sections can be broken up and lifted at different times. Duct work, electrical, and roof pieces would have to be taken apart first however. ( not a problem ) Second, you would need a few cranes to support the top and sides of each roof section while one Crane on either side of each support would insert a steel rod into those "jacking supports" facing outwards. These would have to have been special ordered because I rarely see those types of beams on any structure. ( Arena's that can expand is one Example ) There would have to be additional support in place for a GM Place "Skybox" however, nothing that would be too difficult or expensive. Being that you would need cranes on the rink ( ice ) floor would mean having to re-do the Ice surface afterwards. Depending on where they decide to put extra suites, Extra support columns may not necessarily have to disrupt Donald St. This is a good thing. Other than that, Working with the guys in the industry, seeing buildings go up, I can tell you that the MTS Centre was made to expand. And at a cost that should be more than reasonable.

I'm not disputing the fact that the roof can be raised. Just look at the Winnipeg Arena. But what I dont get is Why? If all you want to do is add a ring of suites in the upper bowl, it wouldn't be necessary, you just need to suport the weight as the suites would now be outside the existing structure.

Winnipeg arena's roof was raised to accommodate new upper decks. And the entire south wall was blown out.

[White-Out]

Honestly guys looking at pictures theres ample room to add rows without lifting the room all we'd have to do is expand the arena outwards to accommodate extra concourse space for the extra people in the upper deck. Just my view and thoughts.. And it would be pricey too lol

[bettmanblows]

A great thread no matter what others say. it seems to be very thought out, with lots of great pics.
My only concern is.. if you expand the upper deck in ANY way it is going to be like a sardine can in the upper concourse. I have been to many events in the upper decks when there has been a full house (W.J.H.C/Moose playoff games, N.H.L exibition) and it is PACKED up there! The seats are fine but if you think the washroom lines are bad on the main deck, that aint nothing to what it is up there. Just getting from the beer line to your seats is a challange, the concourse is so tight that you are bumping into people as you strugle to get to your seat. I understand that luxery suits will have their own facilities but if putting those in takes up concorse room there could be problems.

[Pokey]

I personally think if they add just one row of new seats above the top row and add those 12 new skyboxes around the press box, that will be about a 1,000 capacity addition (600 seats for the row and another 400 skybox capacity) putting the MTSC at around 16,000. And I believe that will be just fine with everyone. I myself have never said that the MTSC needed to be expanded by more than 1,000, but I believe that a 1,000-seat expansion is completely doable, and can and should happen with the announcement of a team. I also believe that the MTSC right now as it stands meets NHL standards, but in order to maximize profits, the new owners will make that minor touch up.

Oh wait, this is kind of like what Darren has been saying all along!!! ;D

[dbp1990]

bettmanblows said:

if you expand the upper deck in ANY way it is going to be like a sardine can in the upper concourse. I have been to many events in the upper decks when there has been a full house (W.J.H.C/Moose playoff games, N.H.L exibition) and it is PACKED up there!

Lets remember that any 2nd deck if possible wouldn't need to be the same size of the first deck that seats around 6500 people.

The 2nd deck would at best have 2500 more seats that may in fact appropriately spaced might be more comfortable than the lower bowl seating and none of the congestion problems or SARDINE like effect......

[JETStender]

dbp1990 said:

I could be wrong, but I'm certain that there is a Provincial Code Requirement that ensures a set number of handicap space for those needing it, Can anyone confirm this?

Yes! 1% of capacity.

[DKehler]

jetstender said:

Just for arguments sake. There are 35 W/C spots with 35 companion seats in the lower bowl.

If there were regular seats, there would be 273.

With all due respect, this really adds nothing to the argument. You're just putting ugly thoughts into people's heads. If they ever seriously consider reducing the barrier free seating to increase capacity, believe me, I will make it my personal mission to block that option. And I can guarantee you that as the vice chair, I will have at least one of the major disability organizations in Winnipeg backing me up.

HOWEVER, it probably doesn't matter because I can't see it happening. The barrier free seating absolutely needs to remain. As it is, I would say the MTS Centre has decent barrier free seating. I hope the new stadium, if it gets built, lives up to the same if not better standard.

[JETStender]

dkehler said:

thedeuce said:

I don't think he's intending to put nasty thoughts into anyones head, and furthermore one would have to be pretty low on the food chain to buy into any plan to stuff the disabled fans into the upper decks.

It's all moot though - the MTS Centre is big enough!

m.

Well, I'm not sure what the point of his post would be other than to put the thought in people's heads that the MTS Centre could add 150+ seats if they removed the barrier free seating in the lower bowl.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

You CANT remove it. It's law that there be 1% of capacity. MTSC is just slightly under that, as in .84% (if you use 15,003 for capacity). The reason it's under is that all their suites are Barrier free as well, capable of bringing them up to 1%.

I have 2 points really.

#1 Barier free seating is already at the low point, it cannot be reduced.

#2 Even if they were to take out all the Barrier free seating you would only gain 200 seats, wouldn't even be worth it.

My comment was in response to "We could also use the wheelchair sections in the lower bowl Which i believe there are about 7 or 8 and either destroy them and add rows or make it standing room and CRAM as many people in there (about 20 depending on the size of each one... it varies)"

Just wanted to put hard numbers to a thought, just in case people would read it and think there was a lot to be gained.

[wagner3]

Idea 1: for the north and south "end zones"

1) knock out the walls just above/behind the last row of seats in the upper deck between the support beams that hold up the roof...i.e., the yellow coloured unfinished walls in this pic:




2) in the pics below notice that the roof could serve as a floor to support more seating (a row or so and standing room behind such seats) as well as additional spaces for washrooms/concessions.

The north side of the arena has more space, than the south, but here is a good pic of the smaller south side:



Some further pics of the south side "end zone"

www.mtscentre.ca/construction/040220/image2.jpg
[/img]



same area from inside of arena looking up:



the north side of the arena has more room as seen in this shot: