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Post by nosunbelt on Jan 1, 2011 18:08:27 GMT -5
I've never really watched the CFL. I mean, as an American why would I when we have the NFL, right? But as I've gotten into this Bring back the Jets (and Nordiques and Hamilton) campaign, I've been looking other Canadian sports cities out of curiosity (mostly to see if there is anywhere in Canada that could be a potential 10th team sometime in the future). I've concluded that unless you put a second team in Toronto AND in Hamilton there is no way any other city in Canada is doable. I looked into Regina and Saskatoon because of the Roughriders' presence there and I noticed that Halifax was once granted a CFL team - the Atlantic Schooners back in '84. The team never came to fruition because of stadium issues but it got me thinking if this was possible. THEN, I found some articles from this past year or two and saw that there is talk again of not only adding a team in Atlantic Canada but also expansion into the United States! You guys probably all know this (bear with me - I'm new to this CFL stuff) but it looks like the CFL is seriously considering expanding. Perhaps a full 12 teams is in the future. I also wonder why Quebec City never had a team. Is there no stadium? What do you guys think of the following cities for the CFL? Ottawa - supposedly coming 2013 Halifax / Atlantic Quebec City USA - Portland, Anchorage, Rochester/Syracuse www.bukisa.com/articles/224358_would-the-cfl-try-expansion-into-the-united-states-again
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Post by whiteout on Jan 1, 2011 18:43:19 GMT -5
Quebec City, as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) does not have a CFL-capable stadium. Although, the city has been tossed around as a potential place to look if it came to it. Halifax/the Atlantic- Moncton is being considered currently and they had a game played there this year. And of course, as you mentioned, Ottawa is supposed to be returning in 2013 (which I believe has been bumped back from the orginal time expected). They would play at Landsdowne Park again at Frank Clair Stadium; although it will go through renovations first.
Also, there was American expansion in the 90's to a handful of places. Baltimore, Las Vegas, San Antonio, Memphis, and some more. 7 in total I believe it was. As far as I know, it turned out to be not that successful for the most part, although I think Baltimore did reasonably well.
I am stating this all off of memory/what I know though, you could probably find better info online somewhere. But anyways, I think a 10 team CFL would be great. 12 would be ideal. Don't know about the whole American expansion, as it seemed to fail before, would it work again? The CFL is healthier now than it was then, but the CFL needs to focus on 10 healthy teams first here in Canada, and go from there. One step at a time. It is more important to focus on ensuring all markets are viable, however most would welcome an eastern team to join the league for growth for sure.
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Post by selanne405 on Jan 1, 2011 19:37:41 GMT -5
QC, Ottawa and somewhere in the Atlantic. Anchorage is actually an interesting idea.
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Post by nosunbelt on Jan 1, 2011 20:26:41 GMT -5
I think the CFL would work in the states but only in northern areas. The problem is that most of the major cities have NFL teams. I think cities like Spokane, Boise, Hartford and Rochester are worth looking into.
The 90's experiment was done very poorly - San Antonio, Las Vegas, Sacramento, etc.
Baltimore was a great success because 1. The team was really good and 2. The fans were very bitter at the NFL for allowing the team to leave in the middle of the night for Indianapolis.
I thought of some cities and came up with this 4 division, 16 team league:
Western Conference
BC Lions, Portland, Spokane, Boise or Anchorage
Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan
Eastern Conference
Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, Rochester
Montreal, Quebec City, Atlantic, Hartford
Just an idea.
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Post by KillerBrew on Jan 1, 2011 22:13:49 GMT -5
CFL expansion to the States won't work for the simple fact that it's the "CANADIAN" football league. A whole different style of football that American's aren't accustomed too. An "inferior product".
The first time around it failed horribly, except for Baltimore. But like already stated, they were jaded towards the NFL and had a stacked team that went to the Grey Cup both years - winning one. American teams were also excluded from ratio rules that are (were) unfair to the Canadian teams.
In America it's the NFL or college, that's it.
USFL - Failed WFL - Failed CFL - Failed XFL - Failed Arena - Failed, but trying again soon.
The UFL will be on it's way out soon, too. They averaged just under 10,000/game in 2010.
Such the negative post... But I agree that the league needs to expand. 2 more teams in the East should do it. A team in Ottawa and in the Maritimes, moving Winnipeg back to the West where we belong. That's pretty much all that you can do.
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Post by mcguire4 on Jan 1, 2011 23:19:39 GMT -5
LOL.... i laughed pretty good at this. i will say though, i like your enthusiasm nosunbelt.
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Post by Z on Jan 1, 2011 23:26:15 GMT -5
The big issue in the CFL is stadiums. There aren't really any demands for large outdoor concerts between October and May in most markets, so it's hard to justify the construction costs for a venture like the CFL and it's 10 home games per year. We get what? 3 non-Bomber events that grab the attention of the city per year? There just isn't enough money flowing there. Hamilton is currently having stadium issues, and the owner is threatening to move the team or go dormant. It's a fascinating story for those who remember the loss of the Jets. The team and city can't agree on a location. Nearby Burlington is the favorite to pick up the slack right now, but again, they need to build a stadium. Moncton is the current favorite for expansion with the exhibition game, but, well you get the idea.
Saskatoon could be considered for expansion, because the Riders are really Regina's team. 90% of the season ticket base comes from Regina or the immediate area. The belief that farmers pile into their tractors and come from far away to the games is false. But again there's that nasty stadium issue. Most of the University stadiums are little more than concrete bleachers with porta-johns.
I can't ever see the CFL going back to the states. It'll never happen in my lifetime, and I'd bet money on that. There would need to be a large demand for the product from specific markets in the US, and investors/owners would have to come to them. They will not search for potential owners to fill a market, any market like they did before.
And for what it's worth, I prefer the Bombers in the East even with Ottawa due back. The travel costs aren't substantially higher, and it's all I know. I'm 32, and they've been an Eastern team the bulk of my life. They've been there since '87 , with the exception of a few seasons with the Renegades back. I have vague memories of the 80s in the West, but to go back feels odd. I get more excited for games against Montreal than I do Calgary or BC.
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Post by livewpg on Jan 2, 2011 0:10:16 GMT -5
As an avid CFL fan, I remember that the CFL's US expansion was a complete nightmare which almost bankrupt the league:
The Baltimore Colts had to change their name due to the NFL having an issue with them using the Colts name. I believe they were the "Baltimore CFLers", and then the Baltimore Stallions. They still are a good team, as the Montreal Allouettes just continue to win every year.
The Las Vegas Posse decided mid-season not to play any more home games, and played the rest of the season on the road & folded at the end of the season. That, and I believe one of the guys they got to sing O Canada at a game completely pooched the song.
The rest of the teams were in the deep south where the NFL did not have a direct presence at the time (Memphis, Shreveport, San Antonio (I think), Sacramento). I believe there were also issues with the field size at some of the stadiums (wider fields, 20yd endzone).
I think that American football is to beloved in the USA in its current format, and any tweaking of it, while maybe generating interest, just won't fly. The XFL was highly touted, but I think their biggest problem was literally making fun of the NFL even before the first snap of the league.
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Post by selanne405 on Jan 2, 2011 1:47:12 GMT -5
Wow I totally forgot about the XFL, talk about a joke lol. Personally I think in some really northern areas of the states, like North Dakota, maybe the CFL could work but overall its a Canadian product and given the cultural differences in sport the league wont work there.
With a pop of just over 100, 000 I suppose a team wouldnt work in Thunder Bay but it s a nice thought. Kelowna would be a nice spot to, the population isnt high enough but there are other enar comunites plus its a very desirable place to live.
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Post by nosunbelt on Jan 2, 2011 9:13:41 GMT -5
In America it's the NFL or college, that's it. USFL - Failed WFL - Failed CFL - Failed XFL - Failed Arena - Failed, but trying again soon. The UFL will be on it's way out soon, too. They averaged just under 10,000/game in 2010. The USFL failed because of Donald Trump and his moving the season to the fall in an attempt to sue his way into the NFL. There were quite a bit of teams that did well. The WFL and XFL were terrible business models flooded with gimmicks. Gimmicks don't sell, good football does. The Arena league did not fail if you look at attendance. What failed was the business model and a commissioner that gave everything away for free in order to have his league on TV. It was around for 22 years before canceling a season and they're back now with a lot more work to do. The CFL obviously failed in the USA though it flourished in Baltimore and the San Antonio Texas were ready to play another season until Baltimore relocated to Montreal. They didn't want to be the only US team. As for the rest of the US cities, the CFL went too south - Birmingham, Vegas, Shreveport and Memphis. I am so sick of people thinking Vegas could be a good sports town. There have been at least 5 pro football teams in Vegas and all have failed. I think that some US cities would do well, but keep it in the north where some are actually familiar with the Canadian version of the game.
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Post by livewpg on Jan 2, 2011 9:26:24 GMT -5
I forgot about Birmingham.
I agree with you nosunbelt, they should work on bringing at least Ottawa and an east coast team into the cfl before any further expansion. Moncton and new brunswick actually have a good local football following, all they need is a stadium that can hold 25000 fans.
If they do decide to try the USA again, I think it needs to be done slower and a lot more calculated. Baltimore and San Antonio had a following, but the other teams fell flat on their back.
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Post by Bob E on Jan 2, 2011 12:37:10 GMT -5
Here's a thought...
West Victoria, BC, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg
East Hamilton, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Atlantic (Halifax/Moncton)
Only real places to expand in West are Victoria or Saskatoon. Both teams in those provinces carry the province moniker (BC & Saskatchewan) so a name change is needed. Which seems odd.
I agree with Z - as we've seen in Wpg - the stadium is the biggest issue. You'd need to build a stadium for other alternatives - soccer teams, university football, etc. That's why Victoria (UofV soccer/rugby or MLS team), Quebec (laval/future Olympics venue) and Halifax (St. Mary's) makes the most sense to me when building stadiums. And these stadiums would then be used for a CFL team moving forward.
A 12 team league would be outstanding and definitely a coast to coast Canadian league.
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Post by Comrade Fox on Jan 2, 2011 14:13:26 GMT -5
I think cities like Spokane, Boise, Hartford and Rochester are worth looking into. Hartford has a team in the UFL (Colonials)
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Post by The Unknown Poster on Jan 2, 2011 14:26:26 GMT -5
I remember things differently. I remember CFL's US expansion saving the league from bankruptcy by injecting it with expansion funds. Eventually, it died though but in the 90's, every year was potentially the year the CFL died.
Later, the CFL took shots at the NFL. Then we borrowed money from them to stay afloat, which led to the option year clause allowing CFL players in their option year to sign with NFL teams.
The XFL could very easily have been a success had it not been for the biased US media. It was well financed by WWE and NBC, had a great TV deal, decent talent and unique rules. The problem is, they were never given a chance to find themselves.
The media crucified the gimmicks early and as the league began ditching some of their gimmicks and getting more serious, it was too late. Had anyone other than the WWE been behind it, the XFL would have gone at least another season to try and find it's way.
ALso, if I recall, the XFL was born after the CFL pursued Vince McMahon to buy the Toronto Argo's. Vince instead offered to buy the entire league, was turned down and set himself out to start his own league. He's got guts, that's for sure.
I cant fathom why the Ti-Cats council wont play ball with the team. Yes, Stadiums are hard to justify, but Winnipeg is showing how it can be done. And the fact is, when you extrapolate the cost out over 50-60 years (or in Hamilton's case, 80), it's a very small yearly investment.
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Post by Z on Jan 2, 2011 23:37:41 GMT -5
The big issue in Hamilton is that they want to use it as part of a downtown revitalization plan, and use it for Pan Am soccer. Kinda like the Point Douglas suggestion for the stadium site (which I actually liked). The team wants something closer to the highway. It's sad, but fascinating.
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Post by The Unknown Poster on Jan 3, 2011 16:56:54 GMT -5
The City needs to come up with a better plan. They will lose everything in their single-minded focus on West Harbour.
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Post by Z on Jan 3, 2011 21:29:21 GMT -5
Agreed. That's why it's so sad. 80 years of history and community pride for that.
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Post by ReJ40 on Jan 10, 2011 18:50:59 GMT -5
@ nosunbelt
I don't know how much you know about Hamilton's stadium, but TSN did a great retrospective of old Ivor Wynne Stadium.
Check it out
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Post by sledlen on Jan 11, 2011 19:41:35 GMT -5
good video!
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Post by wpgmike on Jan 11, 2011 19:50:38 GMT -5
Very good video!
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