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Post by LT on May 16, 2010 15:07:27 GMT -5
Winnipeg has by far the greater amount of grassroots hockey participation and support. This has grown in the last 14 years despite having an IHL/AHL franchise. Winnipeg also had a bunch of issues that were ignored in version 1.0 by relocation pundits. Poor sightlines, revenue not going to the owners, etc. However, the NHL never bought the Jets franchise for a year, absorbing $20 million in losses (while propping up their income statement through revenue sharing from Toronto and Montreal). The city of Winnipeg made some mistakes about not getting their act together, and the NHL is not entirely to blame, but the league is doing WAY more in Phoenix to keep the team there than in Winnipeg. That much is obvious. You are making it sound as if the Jets were a smash hit in Winnipeg before the franchise up-and-moved to the Arizona desert. Far from it... the club was a financial disaster much the same as the Coyotes have been. So there is not much 'tween the two, really. You and everyone else hoping for the ROTJ is *projecting* and *hoping* that the new MTS Centre, coupled with a salary cap and deep-pocketed ownership will make a difference this time around. That is, however not guaranteed by any means... Matz you know I'm a Jets/Coyotes fan. I have to say a couple of things. I was always respectable and nice to the fans on the CC site but some of the attitudes towards Winnipeggers started to really annoy me. Not all but some of them completely disrespect us and Canada in general. They are so fricken closed minded it makes them sound stupid. All I ever requested was respect my feelings towards the team and my desire that they return and I respect theirs as wanting the team to stay, but no they are closed minded. The attitude is if you can't post only Coyote love then you shouldn't be there. Well you know what....kiss my @$$! The Coyotes are our team. Give them back to Winnipeg and then give Phoenix some other failing southern franchise when they get an ownership together. I am so sick and tired of this situation! The only reason this team has gotten to the point of ONLY losing 35 million a year is through bankruptcy. Yes 35 Million not 25 Million because you can't ignore and pretend revenue sharing doesn't prop up this horrible financial situation. For the NHL to allow this circus to continue is a huge joke. Btw your point about the Jets not being a smash hit in the past...I know you know this, not many Western hockey teams were a smash hit back then. If you look at the larger cities, they only had slightly better attendances. We had a brutal owner who had no clue on how to run a hockey team. Who the hell hires Mike Smith to run your team. That guy was a complete idiot!!! If Winnipeg had remained I am sure they would have caught on just like the rest of the Canadian teams have become popular. My biggest frustration is that nobody except for many on this board truly understand the Jets situation thoroughly. We all know we got screwed over and we won't let it go. When idiots from Arizona speak to the Jets past it makes me want to puke...they are so ignorant of what really happened. Then when you tell them, they ignore it. Let me ask you this Matz...if the so called fans lose the Coyotes...how many people do you think will remain fans of the team? How many will be on the teams website chatting and following it 14 years later? I bet you none!!! I think I have my biggest issues with the females on there. They have zero class. At least most of the guys are for the most part a little respectful and will listen to and answer good points. I hope this ends soon! GO JETS GO baby!!!
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Post by WJG on May 16, 2010 16:21:05 GMT -5
Exactly.
I'd wager at least 30-40% of the fans on Coyotes Corner were fans of the Jets that continued to follow the team once they moved to Arizona.
If the team moved back to Winnipeg, would that same fraction of fans on a Jets fansite be Coyotes-turned-Jets fans? I highly doubt it.
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Post by matzel on May 16, 2010 17:08:33 GMT -5
You are making it sound as if the Jets were a smash hit in Winnipeg before the franchise up-and-moved to the Arizona desert. Far from it... the club was a financial disaster much the same as the Coyotes have been. So there is not much 'tween the two, really. You and everyone else hoping for the ROTJ is *projecting* and *hoping* that the new MTS Centre, coupled with a salary cap and deep-pocketed ownership will make a difference this time around. That is, however not guaranteed by any means... Matz you know I'm a Jets/Coyotes fan. I have to say a couple of things. I was always respectable and nice to the fans on the CC site but some of the attitudes towards Winnipeggers started to really annoy me. Not all but some of them completely disrespect us and Canada in general. They are so fricken closed minded it makes them sound stupid. All I ever requested was respect my feelings towards the team and my desire that they return and I respect theirs as wanting the team to stay, but no they are closed minded. The attitude is if you can't post only Coyote love then you shouldn't be there. Well you know what....kiss my @$$! The Coyotes are our team. Give them back to Winnipeg and then give Phoenix some other failing southern franchise when they get an ownership together. I am so sick and tired of this situation! The only reason this team has gotten to the point of ONLY losing 35 million a year is through bankruptcy. Yes 35 Million not 25 Million because you can't ignore and pretend revenue sharing doesn't prop up this horrible financial situation. For the NHL to allow this circus to continue is a huge joke. Btw your point about the Jets not being a smash hit in the past...I know you know this, not many Western hockey teams were a smash hit back then. If you look at the larger cities, they only had slightly better attendances. We had a brutal owner who had no clue on how to run a hockey team. Who the hell hires Mike Smith to run your team. That guy was a complete idiot!!! If Winnipeg had remained I am sure they would have caught on just like the rest of the Canadian teams have become popular. My biggest frustration is that nobody except for many on this board truly understand the Jets situation thoroughly. We all know we got screwed over and we won't let it go. When idiots from Arizona speak to the Jets past it makes me want to puke...they are so ignorant of what really happened. Then when you tell them, they ignore it. Let me ask you this Matz...if the so called fans lose the Coyotes...how many people do you think will remain fans of the team? How many will be on the teams website chatting and following it 14 years later? I bet you none!!! I think I have my biggest issues with the females on there. They have zero class. At least most of the guys are for the most part a little respectful and will listen to and answer good points. I hope this ends soon! GO JETS GO baby!!! I am not among those who see Phoenix and Winnipeg as an 'us against them' situation. The process is being influenced and decisions are being made by people who don't post on internet messageboards. Thus, I don't claim to be right and point at everyone else as being stupid or stubborn. The fact that the goals for this franchise are fundamentally different for folks in Winnipeg than they are for those in AZ makes this a difficult relationship. Maybe like-minded fans should exchange their views on their respective websites?! Only those that are OK with letting someone else have a differing opinion are really going to be able to add anything of value to the site that generally opposes their views. As I said above, it's no surprise that the exchanges are (often) hostile. The intents and goals are polar opposites. That said, Rick and I are not in favor of, nor have we ever seen the cc.net as pro Coyotes only. We appreciate differing views and realize that they can make for good discussion. It all comes down to the presentation. Someone coming in lacking respect for the 'Coyotes view' mustn't be surprised about a lack of respect in return. Admittedly, sometimes the drama gets exaggerated by those who complain about the 'trolls'. I do not label everyone a troll who does not share popular viewpoints. I think most people know when they are being obnoxious or disrespectful. It is those people that we do not need at cc.net or any other moderated forum, for that matter. PS: I don't agree with the idea that the Coyotes (rightfully) belong to Winnipeg and should be returned because of that.
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Post by LT on May 17, 2010 10:53:34 GMT -5
I'm sorry to say Matz....cc.net has become sort of a joke and it's of no fault of the mods, it's kinda like the whole Phoenix situation. I use to go there to talk about the team but now there is very little good conversation going on anymore. I rarely post anymore. It's become a battle on many threads and I do understand that some are trolls that are enticing the fights. It's too bad BUT, some of the battles started way back with the local fans and their attitudes. I have nothing against the true fan who can be open to different opinions. I feel for them just as they should feel for Jets fans. Even HFBoards has turned rediculous but maybe it's just the Phoenix/TNS threads. Even the Phoenix team section has very little intelligent posting. It's sad actually.
I get that you disagree about how many of us feel about the Jets belonging in Winnipeg. It needs to be done to right a wrong, even Bettman acknowledge this point. As much as everybody has dissed my suggestion, I really think it needs to be considered. Why not move the Coyotes to Winnipeg for next season. Right the wrong. THEN that leaves the NHL time to find proper owners who, and here's a novel idea, will be willing to pay for a team...not getting it for nothing because the city is stuck. How is it such a bad thing to do that.
Here's a scenario...why not let Ice Edge buy the Moose...move them to the Glendale arena and run them for a couple of years to get experience. They can learn how to market a team, how to build a team and see if there really are hockey fans down there. The city can book more concerts and get the arena hopping with non-hockey events. Then when the next team becomes available then they can sell it to Ice Edge or some other local group. Just my thoughts. I have my doubts they would attract people out to Glendale for AHL though. I just think saving 25 million in losses can be a positive thing for them. Spend the money on buses to transport people out to the arena. Spend it on marketing concerts and shows at the arena.
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Post by WJG on May 18, 2010 12:22:41 GMT -5
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Post by dlegras on May 18, 2010 13:15:14 GMT -5
I'm sorry to say Matz....cc.net has become sort of a joke and it's of no fault of the mods, it's kinda like the whole Phoenix situation. I use to go there to talk about the team but now there is very little good conversation going on anymore. I rarely post anymore. It's become a battle on many threads and I do understand that some are trolls that are enticing the fights. It's too bad BUT, some of the battles started way back with the local fans and their attitudes. I have nothing against the true fan who can be open to different opinions. I feel for them just as they should feel for Jets fans. Even HFBoards has turned rediculous but maybe it's just the Phoenix/TNS threads. Even the Phoenix team section has very little intelligent posting. It's sad actually. I get that you disagree about how many of us feel about the Jets belonging in Winnipeg. It needs to be done to right a wrong, even Bettman acknowledge this point. As much as everybody has dissed my suggestion, I really think it needs to be considered. Why not move the Coyotes to Winnipeg for next season. Right the wrong. THEN that leaves the NHL time to find proper owners who, and here's a novel idea, will be willing to pay for a team...not getting it for nothing because the city is stuck. How is it such a bad thing to do that. Here's a scenario...why not let Ice Edge buy the Moose...move them to the Glendale arena and run them for a couple of years to get experience. They can learn how to market a team, how to build a team and see if there really are hockey fans down there. The city can book more concerts and get the arena hopping with non-hockey events. Then when the next team becomes available then they can sell it to Ice Edge or some other local group. Just my thoughts. I have my doubts they would attract people out to Glendale for AHL though. I just think saving 25 million in losses can be a positive thing for them. Spend the money on buses to transport people out to the arena. Spend it on marketing concerts and shows at the arena. AGREED!
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Dr No
Veteran Member
Posts: 197
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Post by Dr No on May 18, 2010 13:51:20 GMT -5
I have been on CC as well and its a total joke of a blog site.
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Post by matzel on May 18, 2010 20:21:48 GMT -5
I think you missed the part where I pointed out that the presentation is key. You can't come in, act obnoxious and demand democracy. *That's* called hypocrisy... but really this discussion won't lead anywhere. For good reason we don't see things the same way and probably never will. I guess some local fans get defensive when Peggers call them 'so called fans' and some of the other insults that go along with disrespecting the hockey fans in the desert. Are there a ton of die-hards at this time? Nope, not really, but they are not hockey fans second class because they live in Arizona. They are no different then you guys in Winnipeg, there is just less of them. That however may change in the near future. And it may not. Time will tell. For the next year, the club seems to be in Glendale for sure and I am glad that's the case. Beyond that... we'll see, I guess. If the team has to move I hope it does go to Winnipeg. If it doesn't, I hope the fine folks in MB get another team through relocation - expansion seems out of the question at this time and even if the overall economic situation was more favorable, I am not convinced that expansion makes sense from a hockey point of view.
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Post by matzel on May 18, 2010 20:23:27 GMT -5
I have been on CC as well and its a total joke of a blog site. You know the difference between a messageboard and a blog?
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Post by Ric O. on May 18, 2010 20:41:15 GMT -5
Whoa, I just had a major Blackthorne flashback!
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Post by roosta604 on May 19, 2010 1:03:36 GMT -5
I think you missed the part where I pointed out that the presentation is key. You can't come in, act obnoxious and demand democracy. *That's* called hypocrisy... but really this discussion won't lead anywhere. For good reason we don't see things the same way and probably never will. I guess some local fans get defensive when Peggers call them 'so called fans' and some of the other insults that go along with disrespecting the hockey fans in the desert. Are there a ton of die-hards at this time? Nope, not really, but they are not hockey fans second class because they live in Arizona. They are no different then you guys in Winnipeg, there is just less of them. That however may change in the near future. And it may not. Time will tell.For the next year, the club seems to be in Glendale for sure and I am glad that's the case. Beyond that... we'll see, I guess. If the team has to move I hope it does go to Winnipeg. If it doesn't, I hope the fine folks in MB get another team through relocation - expansion seems out of the question at this time and even if the overall economic situation was more favorable, I am not convinced that expansion makes sense from a hockey point of view. I've said all along the reason we are jaded is because it's like the team has been 'lightly used' since moving to glendale, there are more fans here craving that action, as you've stated. When coyote fans say lack of fan support is the reason the team left, they surely don't know the Winnipeg situation. I find saying that about our city very ironic, as it's a large reason the yotes are in the current bankruptcy situation at the moment... either way...bottom line is the coyote fan base needs to put up or shut up in the next few years if they do end up staying..best of luck
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Post by LT on May 20, 2010 15:29:52 GMT -5
I think you missed the part where I pointed out that the presentation is key. You can't come in, act obnoxious and demand democracy. *That's* called hypocrisy... but really this discussion won't lead anywhere. For good reason we don't see things the same way and probably never will. I guess some local fans get defensive when Peggers call them 'so called fans' and some of the other insults that go along with disrespecting the hockey fans in the desert. Are there a ton of die-hards at this time? Nope, not really, but they are not hockey fans second class because they live in Arizona. They are no different then you guys in Winnipeg, there is just less of them. That however may change in the near future. And it may not. Time will tell. For the next year, the club seems to be in Glendale for sure and I am glad that's the case. Beyond that... we'll see, I guess. If the team has to move I hope it does go to Winnipeg. If it doesn't, I hope the fine folks in MB get another team through relocation - expansion seems out of the question at this time and even if the overall economic situation was more favorable, I am not convinced that expansion makes sense from a hockey point of view. Don't count your chickens:)
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Post by ~Jiffy~ on May 20, 2010 16:20:19 GMT -5
A friend of mine is actually in Phoenix right now, and he wants to put a Jets logo on the arena' s door! LMAO
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Post by subwayscoundrel on May 20, 2010 17:02:08 GMT -5
Why do people always cite grassroots hockey as a reason for a team remaining in their market? In that case, the NHL would probably have the following teams: Toronto x4 Southern Ontario x2 Eastern Ontario x2 Montreal x2 Province of Quebec x2 Maritimes x1 Manitoba x2 Saskatchewan x2 Southern Alberta x2 Northern Alberta x2 British Columbia x4 New York State x1 New England x1 Michigan x1 Minnesota x1 Illinois x1 Winnipeg has by far the greater amount of grassroots hockey participation and support. This has grown in the last 14 years despite having an IHL/AHL franchise. Winnipeg also had a bunch of issues that were ignored in version 1.0 by relocation pundits. Poor sightlines, revenue not going to the owners, etc. However, the NHL never bought the Jets franchise for a year, absorbing $20 million in losses (while propping up their income statement through revenue sharing from Toronto and Montreal). The city of Winnipeg made some mistakes about not getting their act together, and the NHL is not entirely to blame, but the league is doing WAY more in Phoenix to keep the team there than in Winnipeg. That much is obvious. The Leafs have had a terrible team for the better part of 5 years. I don't see fans in Toronto shying away from paying hundreds of dollars a ticket. I don't get why Phoenix fans get to wait until they can hire Ken Holland to build them a perennial contender. It shouldn't really matter: either you support the team or you don't and it is obvious Phoenix fans will not stick with the team through thick and thin. People should have known this year the teams was endanger of leaving. They could have proven themselves as fans in the desert and somebody would have probably bought the team if the fans were packing it in making money. What happened was the fans stayed away until the bandwagon pulled up and they finally showed up to buy heavily discounted tickets. The team still bled money. But, I guess they need more time to prove themselves. The threat of losing a team isn't reason enough to come out and support them either. Winnipeg knew the Jets were leaving in 1995-96. The Coyotes fans could have done something about it. Per usual in their 15 year history, the fans stayed away with great indifference. There is light at the end of the tunnel. That light is in downtown Winnipeg and the tunnel likely ends next summer. It is about turning generations of hockey fans. They are new to the NHL and hockey. So like any business, you either grow or die. New markets do have fans and young fans. Young fans grow into STHs and they bring up their children as hockey fans and the cycle continues. Even though Buffalo is in a cold weather market, if the Sabres had left 20 or so years ago, there would not be so many hockey fans in Buffalo and where all the people from Buffalo have moved. This is what you are seeing in new markets. If they can hold on and grow and make it through the lean years, and start to turn a generation, it builds the market. Also, many of these new markets are growth markets and to be a growth market, you have to have good jobs. Who holds a good job ? Usually stable workers with familys. What do familys have? Children. Look at the new markets and you see growth, good jobs, higher pay, familys, and a bunch of kids growing up hockey fans.
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Post by CuJo31 on May 20, 2010 19:37:59 GMT -5
A friend of mine is actually in Phoenix right now, and he wants to put a Jets logo on the arena' s door! LMAO LMAO that would be awesome... he should post up Bring Back the Jets Posters all over the entire arena and get him to post the photos!! He would then forever be a hero!!
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Post by Ric O. on May 20, 2010 20:43:45 GMT -5
This would all be great fun if we were playing them in the Stanley Cup playoffs and wanted to have some fan fun. But he wouldn't be my hero forever for these kind of antics, which would be ill-timed to say the least. This isn't a campaign of revenge against the City of Glendale and we're not looking to rub salt in wounds or create rallying points for Coyotes fans. We should take our cues from the way Chipman and Thomson are handling things - IMHO.
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Post by CuJo31 on May 20, 2010 20:48:17 GMT -5
lol very true, good point. I still think it would be quite funny though!
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Post by WJG on May 20, 2010 20:48:19 GMT -5
I've only ever heard about Coyotes Corner through the posters on here, but man, that place is DEAD. At any given time, there's only 5-10 registered users on that site, and most of them are either Bots or Winnipeg supporters. I'm honestly surprised they get enough hits to keep the website running. Another example of Canadians propping up southern-based hockey
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Post by Ric O. on May 20, 2010 20:56:27 GMT -5
I've only ever heard about Coyotes Corner through the posters on here, but man, that place is DEAD. At any given time, there's only 5-10 registered users on that site, and most of them are either Bots or Winnipeg supporters. I'm honestly surprised they get enough hits to keep the website running. Another example of Canadians propping up southern-based hockey Well as I said in another thread, I've never been there but based on your info that the coyotes corner moderator is spending his spare time here trying to stir up Go Jets Go, I would have guessed there's not much moderating to do over there. Maybe the Coyotes have a bigger fan website / forum that has a lot more action than CC?
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Post by LT on May 24, 2010 12:19:46 GMT -5
Matz you are truly an idiot. He banned me off CoyotesCorner...what an Go Jets Go. What's the point because anyone can just sign up with a different user name. That's ok...it turned into a joke of a site. The people on their are complete losers. Very little intelligents when it comes to hockey talk. Every article that is ever written out of Canada they hate. Every post that doesn't kiss their Go Jets Go, they are against.
Matz you can keep your site but don't ever come on here pretending to be a Jets fan. You can Go Jets Go buddy!!!
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