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Post by dreamcatcher on Jan 4, 2005 14:23:45 GMT -5
As I've mentioned on a previous thread recently, it is my belief, and has been from the start that the NHL and Gary Bettman are looking to break the Union. Nothing else makes sense.
If the ownership groups were looking to make a deal of ANY kind, even one that proposes a Cap/ Cost Certainty System, they would have put forth a proposal that indicates the owners willingness to share all sources of revenue equally with the Union and/or players. This will never be considered. Ever. The mandate for Bettman is to break the Union, whether this takes 4 months or two years. Players will play under a hard cap, and those that will not, will watch the end of their careers float by.
I suspect that there will be a hard cap of between $30-$33 million when all is said and done, and Goodenow will resign or be fired. I also forsee the re-location, or fold of 4-6 clubs minimum. Two, will likely end up in Canada, and 2-4 clubs will re-locate to more stable, opportunity rich Locations in the U.S.
I do not make these statements lightly. Believe me. First, you must decide what exactly the owners..not the players...are TRULY seeking, then it becomes evident.
PS. To Jason and a few others that have tried to reach me on MSN Messenger recently, I have been having problems with my PC, since the children are on it daily, and I suspect that the computer is chalked full of worms, trojans, adware, etc. I should be able to talk by weeks end.
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Post by PitbulI on Jan 5, 2005 16:05:02 GMT -5
I agree that that Bettman is out to break the union. It has become almost like a Mafia thing with the NHLPA.
I hope that next season, the NHL announces that if the Union doesn't agree to the proposals, there will be replacement players to replace those who will not play. I could see many players dropping the NHLPA for the chance to play. There will be no players picketing either because they're too lazy to play most of the time in the first place.
Only problem is that the players do need a union and a CBA, Hopefully there is a takeover from the players of the current union or there could be another big mess.
You can't have the owners or the NHLPA running the whole show, there has to be a comprimise. Also, if Bettman gets some owner to move to Winnipeg, that would be great.
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Post by jamiebez on Jan 5, 2005 16:22:59 GMT -5
For anyone who doubts this, it should have become perfectly clear after the PA proposed their 24% rollback and the owners not only flat-out rejected it, but turned around on them by proposing a rollback where the highest played players are hit harder. Here's the numbers from: nhlcbanews.com/news/nhlresponse121404.htmlLess than $800K 0.0% Between $800K to $1.49MM 15.0% Between $1.50MM to $1.99MM 20.0% Between $2.00MM to $3.99MM 24.0% Between $4.00MM to 4.99MM 30.0% $5.00MM and Over 35.0% 75% of the players would have their salaries rolled back by 20% or less with the NHL's proposal as compared to 24% with the PA's proposal. Almost half wouldn't lose a nickel! If that's not a clear attempt to woo 3/4 of the players to break from the union, I don't know what is!
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Post by PitbulI on Jan 5, 2005 17:36:24 GMT -5
I'm just worried about the legalities of it all. Don't tell me the union doesn't have some plan that if the NHL starts with replacement players, the players who break away from the union will all be sued and such.
The NHLPA is a business like any other business. Money makes it survive. It will be the NHLPA's job to keep afloat any way possible. Since we already see the Mob tactics from them already, there could be a heavy amount of cement shoes being built for some people.
"BLAH BLAH BLAH,when Wayne Gretzky talks" That doesn't matter to the union. All they say is where was Wayne when the Rangers paid him that huge sum of money to play.
Here's the big fact that the NHL won't tell you. They are in debt, if they continue the way the NHLPA wants, the NHL will most likely fold in many parts of North America. They need cost certainty to stay alive. Every other major sport has cost certainty, why can't the NHL ?
I think an arbitrator should come in and force them a deal. One that allows the NHL to survive and allows the fans to survive financially too.
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Post by jamiebez on Jan 6, 2005 9:37:08 GMT -5
I'm just worried about the legalities of it all. Don't tell me the union doesn't have some plan that if the NHL starts with replacement players, the players who break away from the union will all be sued and such. The union has already said that anyone who "crosses the picket line" (so to speak) will have to pay back any money they received from the union as lockout pay.
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Post by PitbulI on Jan 6, 2005 12:13:43 GMT -5
Yes, but how much will that be?
Some players that wouldn't be making much as a replacement would take a big hit. Then again, if you strike and then after a while go cross the picket line, you don't have to pay back strike pay, you just don't get any more money.
Good luck NHLPA getting money. It's odd that Goodenow knows the fans aren't behind him, so he's actually the poison, not Bettman. NHL R.I.P.
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Post by jamiebez on Jan 6, 2005 12:30:07 GMT -5
Yes, but how much will that be? Some players that wouldn't be making much as a replacement would take a big hit. I think you hit the nail on the head - the PA is trying to discourage the lower-paid guys from crossing by saying that they have to pay back the lockout money. If a guy is only making $500K and has to pay back $300K, that's a big hit. Remember, it's the lower paid guys that are more likely to cross the line, since they need the money more than the Jagrs and Forsbergs. I think Goodenow and Bettman are just playing a cat and mouse game with the lower-paid guys in the union: Bettman encouraging them to cross, Goodenow threatening them not to. That's why I think the union will break - at the end of the day, those guys have to eat. I know $500K is a lot to you and me, but these guys probably have mortgages on $2M houses to worry about. They'll break in the end. And you're right - I have no doubt the union would take legal action against the scabs. They've already threatened to disbar agents who represent them. But I bet they'll throw their lawyers after the league first. If they try and declare an impasse and bring on the scabs in October, there will be a huge legal battle where the union will try and stop the season from starting.
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Post by dreamcatcher on Jan 7, 2005 12:30:00 GMT -5
The NHL is all about Lawyers. They've had a long time to think about what they will do, and the direction this will ultimately lead. A chess game that Bettman et al has down pat for the last two or three years. This is evident by his demeanor, and his arogance, and the 100 percent support from the owners.
You are correct. this is about the lower paid players, that need their $500,000 or $800,000 a year to pay the bills etc. The more you make, the more expensive your life style. Unfortunately, they are not very bright either. I would've hired an independent legal councellor, to speak to myself, and a bunch of players/buddies, and passed on the advice of this attorney after these statements from the NHLPA.
I believe that the Union wil break, because if there's one thing that Goodenow did, it was piss off the league and Gary Bettman. When Gary et al approached the Union 3 years ago, to try doing something about out of control salaries, and Goodenow told them to kiss off, and we will stay the course, allowing salaries to reach a point where guys like Holik are raking in $9 mil per year, it should be no surprise that we are at this point. It is a business, and its all about making money. The owners are not making enough of it.
I really do not believe that the owners are LOSING money as they advertise, unless you are only considering expenditures and profits related to Hockey. Those building are used for far more than Hockey. If I owned a team however, I'd like to be able to pay my employees, watch large crowds of course, but turning a profit would be a must.
As for the backlash of implementation as it relates to scabs, replacement players etc. I am confident that the NHL is ready for this. I am quite sure a legal loop hole or two will be available to jump thru. It is sad though, that some players are allowing the Players Association to intimidate them. If 3/4's of the players walked away from the Union, or voted to fire Goodenow, then whom, exactly, is going to fine the players, sue the players, or demand money back?
That is exactly why I said the Union will be broken, Goodenow will be fired (as will his cronies) and whomever takes over, will have a much better read on the state of the league, and what the players want. Unless of course, there actually is no Union for a while.
If Bettman breaks the Union, and the majority of its players walk away, how would this be a scab issue? I mean, these are the players for their respective clubs, so, are they scabbing themselves? If the Unions busted, whom exactly at that point, is going to sue the league? These are questions that I am sure the Leagues Legal dept. have gone over. It is almost like a mutiny, that ressembles a Domino Effect. I believe this is actually what Bettman is counting on to occur.
We can gauge his intentions better, by next Friday. We will see at that point, what Gary is really up to. To me, he doesn't look too tired, or like he's lost sleep or anything of this nature. He looks fine if you ask me. Should be interesting to tune into TSN, or Sportsnet next week!
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Post by The Unknown Poster on Jan 11, 2005 19:57:53 GMT -5
The NHLPA is playing into the owners plan by threatning players that they will have to pay back lock out pay.
Can you imagine a lower end player crossing the line, only to be kicked out of the union and sued? The highest plaid players can relax on a beach for the rest of their lives counting their money - EVERY other player will be disgusted and will cross the line.
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Post by jets4ever on Jan 12, 2005 1:13:36 GMT -5
The union has already said that anyone who "crosses the picket line" (so to speak) will have to pay back any money they received from the union as lockout pay. If that's the case, any player who is playing in Europe (or any other league) during the lockout should not be collecting lockout pay. Goodenow and Linden are idiots.
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