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Post by mikecubs on Aug 7, 2011 22:53:07 GMT -5
The Expos could work. Bunch of assholes on here raining on the parade. Go Jets Go them. Ok if you think the Expos will work answer these questions for me to help me understand. 1. Where does the 500 million dollars come from to pay for the stadium? 2. Can Quebec afford both a new stadium for the new Expos plus a 400M dollar arena for the Nordiques? 3.If not is it worth sacrificing the Nordiques in favor of the Expos? 4. Who is the team that is coming? 28 of the 30 are locked in and happy. Tampa has a lease until 2027 they can't get out of. Lew Wolf the Oakland A's owner says he's not moving. The commissioner has said many times no expansion since baseball is out of markets. So which team is moving to Montreal? 5.Do you really think there will ever be a salary cap in baseball given the powerful players union? 6. Is it morally right to spend half a billion in tax payer money for a team only a few Canadian nationalist want? |
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 7, 2011 23:04:39 GMT -5
No kidding. Remember the 3 keys for the Return of the Jets: 1. New NHL economic system 2. New Arena 3. Solid Ownership group Montreal has the same three issues for baseball. So they're many years out from being able to host a team. But this was the situation in Winnipeg at one time too. Heck, even after all 3 were in place in Winnipeg, it took years for a team to relocate. When the leagues aren't looking at expansion, you almost need a #4 on that list - a team to relocate. Doesn't hurt for Montreal fans to dream, but they'll have to be extremely patient. Probably even more patient that Jets fans, as they're quite a bit further from the goal. For forgot key number 5. Fan interest/intensity of market I do believe an owner would be interested but only with a 100% funded stadium. No way do the other factors come together. Fans are not interested and there will never ever be a cap and no one is available. Study the history of MLB collective bargaining. The players always win! This isn't the NBA or NHL players union. In the next CBA(the current one expires after this year) the owners are NOT asking for big changes. They don't want a big strike again. At most what the owners will get is international players will be eligible for the MLB draft instead of signing with teams outright. During the last CBA in 2002 i think it was the owners didn't ask for a cap then either. They know better and what the response would be. There is a better chance of hell freezing over and the Chicago Cubs winning the world series than a salary cap in baseball. |
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 7, 2011 23:12:15 GMT -5
By the way, ExposNation isn't my website, I'm just spreading the news. And too bad this website has to close tomorrow, this would have been an excellent debate. We can debate this on the new board:) I'm going to do more research on past Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques attendance and see how far below of above the league average they were and compare that to the Expos horrible woes. So far i only have data for those 2 teams from 1989-1990 season and beyond. The Jets in that time period were at 87.14 % of league capacity. The Nordiques were at 99%. I have a feeling even when i go back further the Nordiques will look very good and the Jets won't be that bad either. What killed the Jets were the upper deck obstructed seats. |
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Post by Conky on Aug 7, 2011 23:17:44 GMT -5
I went to a game at the O in 2001, when they were averaging just over 7000 to a game. Our seats were a few rows behind home plate but still 70ft away. That stadium is terrible. The only highlight was going to the biodome next door before the game. In retrospect, I don't blame the fans for dumping the team. But like others have said on here, you can't just blame it on the team or fans. The government, MLB and c**ksucker Jeffrey Loria are all to blame. I don't know, I'd like to see a team in Montreal before anywhere else, but a team in Vancouver would be just as satisfying.
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Post by bannedana204 on Aug 7, 2011 23:44:24 GMT -5
Those frogs will never, ever get a baseball team back. No way in hell.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 7, 2011 23:47:38 GMT -5
Those frogs will never, ever get a baseball team back. No way in hell. Hey no need for that. Use facts to argue your points NOT insults. I have nothing against Quebec or the french. Its just that baseball needs another small market like a hole in the head. |
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 7, 2011 23:58:27 GMT -5
I went to a game at the O in 2001, when they were averaging just over 7000 to a game. Our seats were a few rows behind home plate but still 70ft away. That stadium is terrible. The only highlight was going to the biodome next door before the game. In retrospect, I don't blame the fans for dumping the team. But like others have said on here, you can't just blame it on the team or fans. The government, MLB and c**ksucker Jeffrey Loria are all to blame. I don't know, I'd like to see a team in Montreal before anywhere else, but a team in Vancouver would be just as satisfying. Look i don't argue the stadium was horrible. It was. That entire era of cookie cutters and fixed roof cookie cutter domes was horrible for the game. But even with a couple thousand people more it wouldn't have been enough. I don't blame the government,Loria or MLB. Anyone would have done what they did. The goverment was wise not to spend millions on a stadium. It would have been another Glendale. I don't blame Loria either. He's a bad owner but it wasn't his fault. It just wasn't working. MLB is the least to blame. It was a mid size market with no interest, no owner and no hopes of a stadium. They had a big market with lots of $$$ waiting for them in DC. Any sport or comissioner would have done the same thing. And there is no reason for fans to dump a team. You stick by your team through thick and thin. Look at the Cub, RedSox and Green Bay Packer fans. Look at all the Jets fans in 1996 who fought to the very bitter end trying to keep the team. Crap happens in sports to everyone. Bad trades, bad owners, idiot general managers, crushing free agent loses are all part of the game. In sports things never go perfect. Especially for small markets in sports without salary caps. Montreal is the kind of town where it would have to be 100% perfect to work. Never a free agent loss,the perfect owner, the smartest GM, no bad trades, a Yankee payroll, win the world series every year. Thats just now realistic or how sports work. There are ups and downs(well except for the Yankees). Vancouver would even be worse than Montreal. They only have 2.3 Million people compare to Montreals 3.8 million. Only 3 markets in the league would be smaller than Vancouver. They have no stadium, BC place would be just like the Big O and Vancouver just blew a bunch of money on revovating it so no new stadium is possible. Also Vancouver had one of the worst sports failure in history with the NBA Grizzlies. They made it only 5 years with a good building and a sport with a cap. If they couldn't support the NBA no way can the support MLB a sport with out a cap and double the number of games. MLB is by far the hardest sport to support. 81 home games, no cap, slow paced game that doesn't appeal to large numbers of people. Instead of getting a team of its own the Blue Jays should play 1 series each year in Montreal and maybe 1 series in Vancouver. It would give fans a taste of the game and it would help make Toronto an entire country team vs just a city of Toronto team. Rating would go way up,merchandise sales would increase and it would help grow the game in Canada. |
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 8, 2011 4:57:15 GMT -5
Here is the entire Jets Attendance history. They were close to league average most years. The only crappy year was the last year. For the other 16 years attendance was steady. The 1st 5 years were above league average the rest a little below but not bad. Overall Winnipeg was 591 people away from being league average counting all 17 years vs the NHL average. 4.35% off the league average.
Winnipeg League Ave
13,284 12,540
13,265 10,726
13,382 10,710
12,889 11,020
12,400 11,359
12,994 13,849
13,620 13,834
13,594 14,114
12,681 14,425
12,816 14,783
13,106 14,975
12,931 14,695
12,931 14,510
13,550 14,045
13,297 14,748
13,013 14,797
11,316 15,986
13,004 13,595 Totals
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 8, 2011 5:05:28 GMT -5
Here is the percent capacity of Winnipeg Arena seats sold for the jets by year starting with the 1st year in the NHL. Then i figured out the percent capacity of non obstructed seats filled. I figured 13,000 seats at Winnipeg Arena were non obstructed seats. One flaw in this is by having the obstructed seats they did sell some which made up for the times some unobstructed seats weren't sold. However this method is close to showing how many seats would have been sold percent wise with no obstructions.
The 1st category is the % capacity overall the 2nd is the non obstructed seats that were filled.
86.30% 102.18%
86.18% 102.04%
86.94% 102.94%
83.73% 99.15%
80.56% 95.38%
84.41% 99.95%
88.48% 104.77%
88.31% 104.57%
82.38% 97.55%
83.26% 98.58%
85.14% 100.82%
84.01% 99.47%
84.01% 99.47%
88.03% 104.23%
86.38% 102.28%
84.54% 100.10%
73.51% 87.05%
84.48% 100% Totals
As you can see in the Jets 17 years in the league on average they sold out 100% of the non obstructed seats. Oddly enough when the Jets returned to Winnipeg they sold out 100% of the seats since they were all non obstructed. No one should have been suprised when the Jets sold out in 2 minutes.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 8, 2011 5:16:20 GMT -5
Now for Quebec, in 10 of the 16 years in the league they were ABOVE league average in attendance!! The 1st year they were below league average attendance by 14.34%. Other than that the worse they did in a year was less than 6% off. Some years they were 30-40% OVER the league average!!!!!
Nordiques League Ave
10,742 12,540
12,227 10,726
15,120 10,710
15,058 11,020
14,986 11,359
14,868 13,849
14,784 13,834
14,832 14,114
14,943 14,425
14,545 14,783
15,080 14,975
14,188 14,695
13,666 14,510
14,981 14,045
14,614 14,748
14,395 14,797
14,314 13,446 Totals
Overall the Nordiques were 6.46% over the league average in attendance in the 16 years they were in the league with an average of 869 people more per game than league average. Bring back the Nordiques.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 8, 2011 5:29:56 GMT -5
Here is the % capacity of seats filled at each game at the Colisee starting with the 1979-80 season.
70.78%
80.57%
99.63%
99.22%
98.75%
97.97%
97.42%
97.73%
98.46%
95.84%
99.37%
93.49%
90.05%
98.72%
96.30%
94.85%
94.32% Overall
One note, I figured the capacity of the Colisee was 15,176 every year. For Winnipeg Arena i figured the overall capacity to be 15,393. If they were smaller starting out then all my percentages are wrong for the capacities.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 8, 2011 5:49:32 GMT -5
I deleted my earlier post on the Expos attendance and will put it here so people can compare them to the Nordiques and Jets.
Year Average NL AVERAGE
1969 14,970 15,530
1970 17,589 17,142
1971 16,037 17,824
1972 14,643 15,977
1973 15,393 17,156
1974 12,660 17,467
1975 11,213 17,079
1976 7,984 17,140
1977 17,701 19,620
1978 17,617 20,686
1979 26,277 21,788
1980 27,261 21,733
1981 28,418 12,838
1982 28,621 22,127
1983 28,650 22,170
1984 19,957 21,380
1985 18,665 22,934
1986 14,025 22,977
1987 22,844 25,447
1988 18,255 25,205
1989 22,019 26,053
1990 16,952 25,197
1991 11,612 25,408
1992 20,607 24,806
1993 20,265 32,561
1994 22,390 22,758
1995 18,189 22,143
1996 19,959 26,789
1997 18,489 28,118
1998 11,295 29,650
1999 9,540 29,388
2000 11,435 30,620
2001 7,935 30,634
2002 10,031 28,510
2003 12,662 28,072
2004 9,356 31,021
17,264 23,221 Totals
Note in 1977 the Expos played there 1st season in Olympic Stadium. Overall the Expos were above average in attendance only 6 seasons. Overall in the 36 years they average 5,956 people less than league average or 25.65%
To summarize the 3 teams
Nordiques-6.46% better than league average in attendance in club history
Jets-4.35% below league average in attendance in club history but sold 100% of unblocked seats
Expos- 25.65% below league average in attendance in club history
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Post by bannedana204 on Aug 8, 2011 8:23:00 GMT -5
Those frogs will never, ever get a baseball team back. No way in hell. Hey no need for that. Use facts to argue your points NOT insults. I have nothing against Quebec or the french. Its just that baseball needs another small market like a hole in the head. See, that's where you and I differ.  |
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Post by ReJ40 on Aug 8, 2011 11:32:17 GMT -5
Hey no need for that. Use facts to argue your points NOT insults. I have nothing against Quebec or the french. Its just that baseball needs another small market like a hole in the head. See, that's where you and I differ. What have we ever done to you? EDIT: Actually, don't even have to answer that. I don't want an argument like that on Jetsowner's last day. |
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Post by allthisgold on Aug 8, 2011 12:12:40 GMT -5
The Expos could work. Bunch of assholes on here raining on the parade. Go Jets Go them. Ok if you think the Expos will work answer these questions for me to help me understand. 1. Where does the 500 million dollars come from to pay for the stadium? 2. Can Quebec afford both a new stadium for the new Expos plus a 400M dollar arena for the Nordiques? 3.If not is it worth sacrificing the Nordiques in favor of the Expos? 4. Who is the team that is coming? 28 of the 30 are locked in and happy. Tampa has a lease until 2027 they can't get out of. Lew Wolf the Oakland A's owner says he's not moving. The commissioner has said many times no expansion since baseball is out of markets. So which team is moving to Montreal? 5.Do you really think there will ever be a salary cap in baseball given the powerful players union? 6. Is it morally right to spend half a billion in tax payer money for a team only a few Canadian nationalist want? 1. I am not saying it will happen or that it is likely to happen but it could happen and I think it is Go Jets Go for people to rain on the parade especially when so many people would say it could never happen for Winnipeg. The money would have to come the same way the MTS Centre was built, part private and part public. Not saying it is likely but you never know (perhaps Quebecor wants something to put on an all sports French channel in the summer and baseball would be good). 2. Perhaps the arena in QC gets built in the next few years and the baseball park gets built in 10 years. The population base in Quebec is quite large, you never know. 3. See #2 above. (personally I would rather see Quebec get back a MLB team as they already have an NHL team). 4. Owners say they are not moving all the time. Altanta's owner didn't say there was a threat of moving until less than a year prior to moving. Regarding the lease, the Coyotes had a long term lease but it was voided in bankruptcy. Do you not think that could happen in baseball? Of course it could. 5. I wish there would be a salary cap but like you I don't think it will happen. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't this site created before the NHL had a salary cap? In any event a site like this would be great for those who wish the Expos would come back. Further to the economics though I do think that revenue sharing in MLB will increase further or alternatively I think in 10 to 20 years there will be way more playoff teams than there is now (to give hope to low payroll teams). 6. Whether it is morally right or not doesn't really matter. If the government decides to help fund a building then vote them out. Again I doubt it will happen but before the government helped TNSE build the MTSC and before the NHL adopted a salary cap it didn't look like the NHL would come back here either. |
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Post by Jordy Ramone on Aug 8, 2011 12:27:59 GMT -5
Wow. As a final post I will point out that all the nay sayers of the expos reminds me of the jets naysayers. Expos has a rich baseball history. They left for many reason. One being a crappy diamond. One being no English tv contract. One being a horrible product on the field. Baseball needs a cap and make more teams make the playoffs (whch might happen next year) And another being a strike with bad timing.
I think I found a new dream....
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Post by gilligan on Aug 8, 2011 14:19:36 GMT -5
Expos fans should take some solace in the fact that there were many 'mikecubs' type folks saying the same things about Winnipeg and the NHL about 10 years ago.
I would grant him that the passion for NHL hockey in Winnipeg is likely far greater than the passion for MLB in Montreal. But otherwise, it isn't too far off being the same situation.
Which is to say that a lot of work would need to be done before Montreal would ever see the MLB again, and it may never happen at all. There needs to be some movement on the "Three Keys" for it to go from "impossible dream" that people laugh at to "plausible".
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Post by Kim Clackson on Aug 8, 2011 15:08:06 GMT -5
That Mikecubs must have a lot of free time
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Post by Conky on Aug 8, 2011 15:16:12 GMT -5
Loria was brought in as the "savior" but his incompetence as an owner (i.e. not landing key players, inability to get English tv contract) and failing to get a new stadium pretty much put the final nail in the coffin. When the MLB came in and took control of the team they tried to kill it in every way possible, like when the 'spos were in the 2003 wild card race against the phillies, the MLB wouldn't allow them to call up players from the minor leagues because their payroll was so low. Also having "home" games in Puerto Rico didn't help at all. Because the owners (bud selig) didn't care about the team, city or fans it was obvious they were doomed. The MLB was set from day 1 to kill the expos.
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Post by Jordy Ramone on Aug 8, 2011 15:21:50 GMT -5
Those frogs will never, ever get a baseball team back. No way in hell. Hey no need for that. Use facts to argue your points NOT insults. I have nothing against Quebec or the french. Its just that baseball needs another small market like a hole in the head. according to list.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_teams_by_population Montreal would be 15 th overall. |
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